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February 22

How do speakers of tonal languages sing most kinds of songs?

How in the world do speakers of tonal languages sing most kinds of songs? Wouldn't the tonal aspect of their languages make that very difficult, if tone is of the utmost importance in their languages? Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 05:09, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Can't speak for other languages, but in Mandarin you would just sing without the tones. The meaning is usually clear from the combination of words and the context. — SMUconlaw (talk) 06:58, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

It's the same for modern Thai/Lao songs. Meaning is clear from context (the same is true for the hearing impaired who have to read lips, btw). In some traditional Thai and/or Lao music forms, however, (such as mor lam) the melody of the song is often determined by the tones of the words. Also interesting is that in Thai poetry, the โคลง meter prescribes certain tones for specific syllables.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 08:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Previous reference-desk threads here, here, and here. There may be others. Deor (talk) 11:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

cuckoo sign

I'm confused. What exactly does the "cuckoo sign" (A gesture, consisting of a twirling motion of a finger near the temple) refer to? Wiktionary asserts that the gesture indicates that "that a person may have a screw loose", which would explain the twirling, but not the cuckoo, unless the lunatic's brain is likened to a cuckoo clock (I seem to remember that from old cartoons, but I couldn't give an example). The equivalent German gesture is tipping, not twirling, one's index finger against the forehead and relates to the expression einen Vogel haben, which supposedly relates to an old superstition that birds may be nesting in the lunatic's head, but if the bird is ever specified, it's not a cuckoo, but rather a tit. Any ideas anyone? Also, is the tipping gesture really uncommon in North America? What about Britain? Tip or twirl? --Janneman (talk) 21:20, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

"Cuckoo" is an old slang term for "crazy"[1] and possibly the inspiration for the terms "kook" and "kooky".[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:00, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

mm, yes, and also for cuckold, but then the cuckold gesture or "horns" is something entirely else, which confuses me even more...--Janneman (talk) 22:04, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Forget "cuckold". The word "cuckoo" means "crazy", as used in America. As in "has a screw loose", "not playing with a full deck", etc. If that twirl is called the "cuckoo sign", it's because they both mean "crazy". Here is a rendition of "The Cuckoo Song", which Laurel and Hardy used as a theme. It even has words, including "I'm cuckoo and you're cuckoo". Perfect. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

In areas of America with a large hispanic presence it's called the locomotion. μηδείς (talk) 01:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

When I was at school, there was a more complex variation, with an accompanying chant: "Tap tap (tapping the temple with right forefinger) curly-wurly (making the twirling gesture described above) cuckoo! (pointing forward at forehead height with the same hand, mimicking the action of a cuckoo-clock)". It was used to harass or heckle people who were regarded as 'crazy'. And the connotation is definitely, as Bugs says, that of the bird itself. 'Cuckold' is unrelated; 'kooky' might or might not be. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:24, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

From Etymology Online - cuckoo (n.): " Slang adjectival sense of "crazy" is American English, 1918, but noun meaning "stupid person" is recorded by 1580s, perhaps from the bird's unvarying, oft-repeated call". Do you actually have cuckoos in America? Alansplodge (talk) 09:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

yes. --Jayron32 12:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

See Cuckoo#Distribution and habitat for the American cuckoos, of which some are Brood parasites. Shakespeare used the "stupid person" sense in Henry IV, Part 1 "A horsebacke (ye cuckoe) but a foote hee will not budge a foote". Dbfirs 12:21, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks; I should have read my own link. Further to User:AlexTiefling's childhood remembrances, in my 1960s childhood in London, the same gesture meant only "a screw loose". An accompanying ditty (sung to the tune of the Westminster Quarters) went: "Ding dong, ding dong, / Your brain's gone wrong; / There's a screw loose, / Now it's no use!". I haven't heard it since I left junior school though. Alansplodge (talk) 13:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the gesture itself has been around a lot longer than the label "cuckoo sign". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

February 23

English pronunciation of given name "Liza"

Take a look here. Thanks.--Carnby (talk) 12:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

As Adam Bishop has indicated on that talk page, Ms. Minnelli's name is pronounced /ˈlaɪzə/ (like an aphetic version of the name of the main female character in My Fair Lady). Deor (talk) 13:24, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Khmer neak

Can anyone give a range of meanings for this - sorry I can't do Khmer script, but I mean the neak as in neak ta, neak thom. 12:45, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

អ្នក (Khmer pronunciation: [neə̯ʔ] or neak), has a wide range of uses in Khmer, some of which include:

• a neutral (i.e. between equals; polite, but not necessarily formal) 2nd person singular pronoun ("you").
• functioning as a sort of kinship term when addressing an older brother-in-law (husband of an older sister) or, less often, an older sister-in-law.
• as a general noun, it means "person" or "people".
• an agentive particle used to create nouns: កីឡា (keilaa, "sports") ~~> អ្នកកីឡា (neak keilaa, "athlete"); កោះ (kah, "island") ~~> អ្នកកោះ (neak kah, "islander").
• spelled នាក់, a classifier for people (commoners only, there are different classifiers for royalty, Buddhist clergy, etc.)

The neak in neak ta can't really be analyzed separately. It would just be "you grandfather". Neak ta is a complete term in and of itself that can mean "ancestor spirits", "village spirit", "guardian spirits", etc. Context is usually sufficient to determine which spirits are meant, but it can be clarified when needed: អ្នកតាព្រៃ, neak ta prey("forest spirits"). Neak thom is an example of the agentive particle. Thom means "big" or "important", neak thom is "an important/powerful person, dignitary or high-ranking official".--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 02:49, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very comprehensive. PiCo (talk) 05:04, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Filmographies, not just for films anymore?

After looking at this edit where the editor replaced the word "Filmography" with the more verbose "TV and filmography", I started wondering if the term 'filmography' could be applied to TV shows as well. So, I looked the word up and it does seem to refer simply to films. Is there a change going on in the language that would have it include TV shows as well? I often see it the fields combined here on Wikipedia but what about the English speaking world outside of WP? By the way, I would have changed it to simply 'filmography' because I feel the longer form is too clunky but I don't really have anything other than my opinion to back me up. Dismas|^(talk) 12:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I blame IMDb for this. They mix them together over there. It might be worthwhile to discuss this at the film project and see if we should move the TV credits to their own section. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:43, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

This is probably a question for the appropriate MOS talk page. I see nothing wrong per se with Film and TV if that's what's involved, or Selected Works or one could even say Videography although filmography seems to be the expected word, and not normally to include TV. For example of why not to do this, consider one section that included all of Bette Davis's films and TV appearances in cameos and on talk shows. It would be a horrible mess. μηδείς (talk) 18:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers is the appropriate place; I'm going to start a discussion there. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:45, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

A lot of television production still uses film, right? I don't see the problem. Take a look at Category:Filmographies and its subcats. The title format is often "Joe Blow filmography" even when there are TV roles, or even completely non-film formats like radio and stage. Others have resorted to clunkier, if more inclusive, titles. --BDD (talk) 15:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Identification and self-identification

In the translation of languages, and even within one language, people have a tendency to use whatever other people call them (which may be good or bad) and use the terms to describe themselves. Linguistic reappropriation is similar in concept, but it focuses on a bad word that later turns into a neutral or good word or just a word for self-identity. Is there a broader term for reappropriation that does NOT have to come from a bad label? English speakers say "China", referring to the Qin dynasty, the first imperial dynasty, but Chinese speakers say "中国", which is translated literally as "Middle Country" or "Middle Kingdom". English speakers say "England", but Spanish speakers say "Ingleterra". That at least sounds like a literal translation. Ingle. English. Terra. Land or earth. 66.213.29.17 (talk) 17:20, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The broadest word to describe the concept of which you are speaking is called an ethnonym. That article has links to a variety of origins of ethnonyms as well as classes of sources of ethnonyms. --Jayron32 18:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Also, the Spanish is Inglaterra, which is a calque of Englaland.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs)

I think what the OP is trying to get at, is if there's a neutral term for using another culture's ethnonym for you to describe yourself, other than reappropriation. For example, how some western Japanophiles call themselves Gaijin. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Gaijin is perfectly normal for us foreigners who live there for a while and actually make an attempt to assimilate (unlike most, who are only there for a year or so). Newcomers tend to find it offensive, despite the fact that the word merely means 'foreigner', which is exactly what they are. Anyway, I fail to see how the word 'China' could be considered bad - OK, China is not an imperial nation (so they say), but it's still the word used in English, so they accept that, because there is no other word for China in English (besides Cathay, and other archaic words). China calls the UK 英國, 'YingGuo' for phonetic reasons, in the same way as China may have been named after the 'Qin' Dynasty. I still fail to see your point that 'people use terms that other people call them to refer to themselves' as 'China' is not called, for example, 氣愛那 in Chinese. Your other example of Inglaterra being Spanish for England also does not become an example in your question, as worded. Inglaterra was called Inglaterra because it was called Englalond before the word Inglaterra was introduced into Spanish. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 23:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

My point was not to say that "people use terms that other people call them to refer to themselves' as 'China' is not called, for example, 氣愛那 in Chinese", whatever that is supposed to mean. My point was to say that Chinese speakers call "中国", a term that bears no allusion to the Qin dynasty, whereas the English term "China" does. And I never said or implied that "China" or "中国" was bad. 66.213.29.17 (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, then, it's not reappropriation, is it, as the two terms are completely unrelated. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 00:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually it's even closer. The UK is often named "England" in foreign languages. 英国 (Yingguo) is derived from 英格兰 (Yinggelan, "England"). The official name would be 大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国 (Great "Buliedian" and Northern "Aierlan" United Kingdom). 法国 comes from 法兰西共和国 "Falanxi" Republic (France), 德国 comes from 德意志联邦共和国 "Deyizhi" Federal Republic ("Deutsch"land, Germany) and 希腊 Xila (Hellas, Greece). It's a mix of phonetic transcription (of either how the country call itself or the English name) and translation of meanings. Chinese doesn't allow consonant clusters and has undergone palatalization (e.g. gi, ki, hi became ji, qi, xi). Many countries would be transcribed differently if there wasn't already a name since there are syllables closer to the actual pronunciation. --2.245.102.193 (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but usually when in China, we would use the short name 英国 (Yingguo) to say where we are from, which is actually far more understandable and palatable to the locals than 大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 04:04, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

"Inglaterra" is cognate with "England", as "Spain" is cognate with "España". But as noted, some country's names are totally different from what we call them, thanks to ancient assignations which persist to this day. My German colleagues, when speaking English, would call their own country "Germany" even though they call it Deutschland; and speaking to them (in English) and happened to call it "Deutschland", they found it kind of disconcerting (possibly because I wasn't pronouncing it the right way). And it's like when we call the Hellenic Republic "Greece", Misr/Masr "Egypt", and Nippon "Japan". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Why would they call their country "Deutschland" when they speak English? Obviously they would use a term you understand easier. --2.245.102.193 (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Slight correction. Cognates are words that derive from the same root. Terra is not cognte with land, but rather with thirst--meaning "dry". The proper term here is calque, which is a literal, word for word substitution--a borrowing of meaning, but not form. μηδείς (talk) 06:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Of course, as both I and Bugs have said, when it comes to the name of countries, we call them by whatever name we have historically called them, whilst they may (and usually do) have their own name for it, and when speaking in the respective languages, each would use both. @OP Your examples were not relevant. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 02:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I think "Japan" and "Nippon"/"Nihon" are fundamentally the same word, aren't they? 109.157.10.148 (talk) 04:46, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

They are exactly the same word (日本), just different pronunciations, and can be used interchangeably. Incidentally, the word 'Japan' is related to the word 'Nippon', as it comes from an older pronunciation of the Chinese for 'Riben' (Japan), which was something like 'nyitbon', from whichever dialect it came. The 'ny' became 'J' in Portuguese. Compare the old name Zipangu (日本国).KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 05:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Seems I did not express myself clearly since your "incidentally" is the whole purpose of my comment, which was to query the apparent suggestion in the previous post that "Nippon" and "Japan" were etymologically different words. 86.150.71.35 (talk) 18:09, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Also see exonym and endonym.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 19:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

To whom is Michael J responding? —Tamfang (talk) 01:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I've seen a reconstruction of the first element as /nziet/ (with some odd diacritics that I don't remember). Successor languages lost either the /n/ or the /z/. —Tamfang (talk) 01:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, Tamfang, I chose a 'y' instead of the ʐ that I should have used. I just couldn't find it. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 04:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I know very little Japanese, but when I was in lockup I befriended an American Lesbian who had served in Japan. I asked her to confirm that "Atashi wa gaijin desu" was correct. She told me I should say "Boku wa gaijin da." When I speak to Hispanics I say my family are puros gringos, "pure gringos". μηδείς (talk) 06:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what gender you are, Medeis, but the first example is correct for female speakers, and the second for male speakers using the more humble male pronoun 'boku' than the less humble male pronoun 'ore'. However, this is a phrase I would only ever use on the phone, as when speaking to someone face to face, my caucasian features would make the explanation unnecessary. Language teaching materials are very often not very good, and use useless phrases to illustrate their points. "This is a pen" in Japanese is 'kore wa pen desu.' When I was teaching in Japan, I was half expecting someone to say, "Yeah, we know, that's what we call it in Japanese." KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 18:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I assumed someone might catch that, and had I said watashi it would have also implied something, as does my use of "lockup" (which is not quite accurate either), but the salient point was that the lesbian said that she herself used boku, which was the joke. My real question to her was not about the verb or pronoun, but about gaijin. μηδείς (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You'd be surprised. A lot of 'tomboy-type' Japanese female children use 'boku', and in Nagano, old women use 'ore' to refer to themselves (I have never met a lesbian Japanese, but I am sure they have the same 'gender roles' as western lesbians). 'Watashi' is perfectly OK for both genders. 'Watakushi' is even more formal, yet OK for both genders. 'Gaijin' is perfectly acceptable, however, it is short for 'gaikokujin', which actually means 'foreigner' or more specifically 'someone from another country'. Newcomers tend to pseudo-translate 'gaijin' as 'outsider' (which could be a literal translation if you are super-sensitive and unable to understand that words can be shortened). KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 01:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

My lesbian tutor was an American, probably descended from the British Isles, not a native Japanese. μηδείς (talk) 03:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Calling oneself a "gringo" is probably also a good ice-breaker. It's harder to be labeled when you've already done it yourself. (Kind of like when Brits call us "Yanks" and think they're insulting us.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:09, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

This is a common topic, actually. A while back (a few years ago), there was a question here asking if us Brits find the word 'Brit' offensive, but we don't, because that is actually what we call ourselves. I've had this conversation numerous times with 'yanks' in real-life, too. We don't mind it at all. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 18:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Lily-livered limey.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:45, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Bah, Jack, don't complain. You steal a loaf of bread and we send you off on a lifelong holiday on a huge tropical island for free. We have to pay for it. Bloody Ozzies, don't know they're born... :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 21:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

February 25

Translation of a word to 'royal Thai' and 'religious Thai' please?

The word is 'moisture'. Can I have the street and rhetorical words for it too please?

Thanks Adambrowne666 (talk) 04:21, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

ชื้น is the general Thai word meaning "damp" or "moist". Adding the prefix ความ yields the standard Central Thai word for "moisture": ความชื้น. A general alternative is ชุ่ม, meaning "damp, moist or wet", and it is often combined in the typical Thai way to produce ความชุ่มชื้น (Thai pronunciation: [kʰwaːm˧ tɕ͡ʰum˥˩ tɕ͡ʰɯːn˦˥], roughly khwam chom cheun), "moisture". Another alternative is เปียก, but that can also mean more wet than moist. I'm not aware of a commonly used royal/religious synonym, although a Pali, Sanskrit or Royal Khmer word pronounced as Thai probably exists. When speaking of royalty/clergy, I would replace the common prefix ความ (kʰwaːm˧) with the equivalent Pali-derived prefix สภาพ and use สภาพเปียกชื้น (Thai pronunciation: [sa pʰaːp˥˩ piak˩ tɕ͡ʰɯːn˦˥].--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 04:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Brilliant - thank you for the thorough answer. Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the name Pólya

The Wikipedia page for George Pólya has the Hungarian pronunciation of the mathematician's surname. Does anyone know how the professor pronounced his name when he lived in the U.S.? --98.114.146.189 (talk) 05:09, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I can't find a source for how he said it, but every mathematician in the USA I know has pronounced it similar to /POLE-yuh/ or /PAHL-yeh/ SemanticMantis (talk) 19:10, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

"Fully-springed mattress" or "fully-sprung mattress"?

Hello, again!

[Some time ago], I started a discussion on how English speakers derive adjectives directly from nouns by using the -ed suffix, and how said usage differs from the (somewhat similar) phenomenon of past participles doubling as passive adjectives. Now, a new quirk in the language has caught my eye.

The Oxford American Dictionary, Third Edition gives several definitions for the verb to spring, including "to provide a mattress with springs." Furthermore, it gives sprang or sprung as the only allowable past participles for the verb in question. Also, it separately lists the adjective unsprung, defining it as relating to "a mattress not having springs in it." Now, this strikes me as rather odd.

Since—in the case of mattresses—the adjective relates to springs and not to springing, then wouldn't one say "fully-springed" or "unspringed mattress?"

cf.

I mean, why should we have "fully-sprung mattresses," but not "paid hull decks," "relaid electrical impulses," "spat roast," "retrodden tires," or "recently cost natural-gas reserves"?

Pine (talk) 09:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It seems like an odd statement either way. Do you have any examples of either usage in mattress advertisements? Though I have to say that a "sprung" mattress would conjure a mental picture of a mattress that's in such bad shape it has springs poking through the material. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:05, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I found this ad for[| springed] and this one for [sprung]. Unfortunately, neither manufacturer is headquartered in an English-speaking country, so I'm inclined to take both cum grano salis.

As a side note, however, usage commentator Bryan Garner (whom I've referenced before) [agrees with me]. Do any of you, as well?

Pine (talk) 10:49, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you. It should be "fully-springed", not "fully-sprung". The meaning being conveyed is that the mattress is equipped with springs (or, put differently, has springs as a feature), not that it has undergone some "springing" process or treatment. --98.114.146.189 (talk) 13:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Whatever it should be, I can assure everyone that in the UK "fully-sprung" is usual if not universal – as an Ukian born and bred, I've never (in 6 decades) encountered "fully-springed" and would assume it to be mistake by a non-native speaker. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:42, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Same in the US. It's sprung; logic be damned. I think "springed" just "sounds weird". It's not that Anglophones can't say it; it rhymes with "dinged", for example. But it's an unusual enough consonant cluster that there's a resistance to it. --Trovatore (talk) 19:03, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Do English speakers call Saturn the "rung planet"?66.94.28.83 (talk) 20:29, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

No. But I think you knew that. --Trovatore (talk) 20:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, agreed. Sprung is the normal term in English. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 17:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

And sprung is also usual for vehicles, as a Google search for "sprung automobile" or "sprung carriage" (for example) shows. Deor (talk) 18:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Also, released on parole, or "sprung from the joint." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:56, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

But that's from the verb, not the noun. — kwami (talk) 22:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• The mattress has not sprung, partially or fully. It has springs, like a four-footed animal has feet. μηδείς (talk) 17:32, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • What would be an example of a mattress that's not "fully" spring/sprung? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:22, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Foam rubber, or whatever euphemism the manufacturers choose for it. See mattress - "so-called hybrid beds, which include both an innerspring and high-end foams". Tevildo (talk) 23:05, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Never heard the phrase, and I find it opaque. A "fully sprung mattress" could only be a mattress in which the springs have fully sprung, or s.t. similar. "Fully springed" does sound odd, but I'd at least understand it, though like Bugs I'd wonder what a partially springed mattress would be. (I suppose half-way through its manufacture, before all the springs were added.) — kwami (talk) 22:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with other posters that "fully-sprung" is the normal English term. "fully-springed" is weird and looks like an error. 31.49.120.201 (talk) 04:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Never heard that expression until this question appeared. Must be a British thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• I can't say that I've heard either term, but "fully sprung" sounds to me like something that is broken (i.e. the springs have exhausted their elasticity and are now completely "sprung"). "Fully springed" sounds weird, but I would immediately understand it to mean something that had springs throughout or otherwise had a full complement of springs. Matt Deres (talk) 14:46, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Regardless of the grammar, I think the "fully springed" term refers to the density or "coil number". The more coils per surface area the better the support and wear. μηδείς (talk) 00:21, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I understand fully-sprung mattress to be like sprung dance-floor (which doesn't even have discrete springs) - something like 'made springy'. --ColinFine (talk) 12:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Ancient greek

What is the Ancient Greek for feathered?--95.251.178.15 (talk) 09:58, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest πτερωτός ([3]), which is e.g. used by Herodotus: "Their wings are not feathered [Greek πτερωτὰ, the neuter plural form of πτερωτός] but very like the wings of a bat." Histories, book II, chapter 76 - Lindert (talk) 10:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

but πτερωτός is feathered or winged or both ones?--95.251.178.15 (talk) 14:10, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

(ec)Or "winged", as in the root of the names used for Pterosaurs.

The term "winged" might have implied "feathered". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, "πτερωτός" can also be translated as "winged", depending on the context, like πτερόν (or modern Greek φτερό) can mean both "feather" and "wing". It's actually common that a word in one language lacks an exact equivalent in another. I cannot find anything closer to English "feathered". It's clear however, that "πτερωτός" does mean "feathered" in some contexts, and people translate it as such, e.g. in the Herodotus quote, or this one from Plutarch: "And yet we see that they who hunt wild beasts clothe themselves with their hairy skins; and fowlers make use of feathered [πτερωτοῖς] jerkins;" ([4]). - Lindert (talk) 20:00, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

"Don't Know They're Born"

I've used a phrase up above as a jokey reply to Jack's jokey reply to a comment I had made. The phrase is in the title here. This got me thinking. Where does this come from? It's generally used by older people talking about younger people, and how the older people perceive that the younger people have life easier than the older people did. Does it mean something like, "They haven't lived a REAL life yet" or something? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 21:36, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

A quick search indicates it was first used by Eden Phillpotts in his 1912 novel The Forest on the Hill (where one of his characters uses it to refer to the rich, rather than the "young people today" of the modern idiom). I would interpret it along the lines of "If we compare our lives to theirs, they do as little work/suffer as little discomfort/have as few responsibilities as an unborn baby." Tevildo (talk) 23:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I've heard it from a fifty-ish guy, referring to his twenty-ish son. Something like "He doesn't think he can die, but he doesn't even know he was born." Couldn't appreciate the value of life itself in the light of the here and now, I took it. Just nodded, didn't ask.

Both still alive, not sure if the son knows he was born yet. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:38, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

As for the referenceable and British, this backs up the "had it easy without realizing it" meaning. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:43, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

The version I've most often heard is "He doesn't know he's alive". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

February 26

Cerdeña and Córcega

Does anyone know why the names for Sardinia and Corsica underwent a shift from /s/ to /θ/ in Spanish? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 11:42, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Anything to do with the Castillian lisp? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

It seems like the answer requires a little more than just a reference to the rise of the dental fricative in Spanish. Typically, the Spanish soft c (pronounced as /θ/ in Northern Spain) derives from Latin words with C (that is, a hard /k/). As is explained at the Wiktionary entries for Sardinia and Corsica, the names come from Latin with /s/ (spelled s). In other words, this is strange because it's common for sounds to go k > θ in Spanish, but not k > s > θ. The important changes leading up to the Spanish pronunciation with /θ/ might have preceded the 16th century. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 17:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

This is speculative, but this has to have a complex history. This is not the normal phonological development from Vulgar Latin. My guess is that Castilian was isolated from the Mediterranean during the early years of the Muslim conquest, and the native names for those two islands might have fallen out of use in the language, since there would have been no contact with them. Later, Castilians may have picked up the spoken names of the islands from a Romance language, such as Catalan, where "c" before "e" or "i" was already pronounced [s], without knowing how the names of the islands were written. Given that the sequence [se] (spelled either "se" or "ce") in Catalan was at the time often pronounced (in words spelled "ce") [s̪e] in Castilian, those Castilians might have assumed that the syllables should be pronounced [s̪e] in their language and spread that pronunciation in the Castilian-speaking region. In Castilian, [s̪e] later became [θe]. See History of the Spanish language. Marco polo (talk) 18:30, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Looking at Sardinia#Medieval history, these two islands were linked as the Kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica and the crown "given" to the Kingdom of Aragon. Marco may be on the right track here as it seems the two names probably developed in medieval Aragonese and/or Catalan and then were adapted at some point into Castilian based on those pronunciations, instead of from the Latin or Italian.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 02:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Hector and hectoring

It's not exactly a compliment to call someone hectoring, but Wiktionary says the term comes from the Iliad's Hector, who has been revered as an exemplary figure over many hundreds of years and across cultures. How would his name come to be associated with something petty and negative? --BDD (talk) 15:32, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

According to oxforddictionaries.com, "Originally denoting a hero, the [noun] sense later became 'braggart or bully' (applied in the late 17th century to a member of a gang of London youths), hence 'talk to in a bullying way'". In contrast, Etymonline says the verb sense is "in reference to [Hector's] encouragement of his fellow Trojans to keep up the fight". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The connection, as per the EO link, seems to be that the Greek hero Hector was known for exhorting his comrades into the battle. Sometimes there's a fine line between leadership and bullying. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:25, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Not for Teddy Roosevelt. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Could also be seen as an example of pejoration (only brushed in the article on semantic change, but see one table with "Some examples" (silly, lewd, villain, ...). ---Sluzzelin talk 00:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks all. It would help to see early usages of the word, but I can definitely imagine that it was once used in a more positive sense, started to be used sarcastically, and is now a negative term. --BDD (talk) 14:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

You know what happened to Hector in the end though right? I'm pretty sure being dragged naked around the city by horses is a pretty good example of intimidation/bullying. Hector#Duel_with_Achilles says "For the next twelve days, Achilles mistreats the body".

My point is, what happened to Hector could have also influenced usage. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:53, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

February 27

Identificacion de una sello

ver sello no. 16

Búsqueda asistencia con la lectura del texto en este sello no. 16. Yo leo: «Serie 5», «SOCIEDAD (...)RAL DE CU(...)NES PROGRESO», «50», «CINCUENTA CENTIMOS». El logotipo fue utilizado por la Asociación General de Electricidad en 1888, ver [5] o [6]. Gracias. --91.50.31.10 (talk) 01:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I interpret the question as, "Identification of a postage stamp -- [I need] search help reading text on this stamp number 16. I read: 'Series 5','SOCIEDAD (...) RAL DE CU (...) NES PROGRESO ','50',' FIFTY CENTIMOS [cents]". The logo was used by General Electric Association in 1888, see... Danke, y'all." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that first part reads Sociedad General de... then maybe Correos, which would refer to the post office. But I'm not finding anything on Google so far. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:46, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

"Sociedad general de cupones 'Progreso'". [7] --Amble (talk) 08:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• "Progress Coupons"? As in the GE slogan, "Quality is our most important product"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• More like green stamps. [8] --Amble (talk) 16:34, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Makes sense. That would account for the number imprinted on it. It's funny how something can seem exotic until you know what it means. "Denali" sounds rather more exotic than "Mt. McKinley" until you discover that "Denali" means "the really tall one". "Really Tall One National Park". Yup. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

And here I was sure Denali is a river in Egypt.... μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Q: Why do Egyptian rivermen turn their backs on reality? A: Because dey're in de Nile. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:26, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Q: Who was that sultry temptress I saw you with down by the river last night? A. The sauce of the Nile. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Resolved

Gracias --84.58.246.235 (talk) 08:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

pronunciation

What is the correct pronunciation of the word Orre(from Pokemon)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C541:CC60:4897:AF86:CD38:DFCF (talk) 02:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

All Japanese is pronounced the way it is written, so it would be 'O-rr-e'. Like Spanish 'Olé', but with a trilled 'r' instead of an 'l'. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Does "rr" exist in Japanese? As far as I can tell (e.g. [9]), in Japanese it is オーレ, Ōre. 86.155.201.148 (talk) 15:15, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Really, an Alveolar_trill? I bow to your experience in Japanese. I only watch Anime, but I would say at most it's an Alveolar_flap. The latter article even gives Akira as an example in Japanese. An American could get by with pronouncing ⟨ɹ⟩ (as in 'red', Alveolar_approximant) or even ⟨d⟩ (as in 'dog', Voiced_alveolar_stop) if they can't manage the flap. I think of it as an r that just barely hints at a d, which is easier for me to do if I'm saying the word loudly or quickly. But really, OP should just watch Pokemon and other Anime in Japanese with subtitles, and then they won't have to ask us how to pronounce things ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

A trilled r does exist in some dialects of Japanese. I associate it with yakuza or tough-guy speak, but if this thread is to be believed, those (fictional) yazuka are actually speaking Hiroshima-ben or Ōsaka-ben (much as fictional pirates speak West Country dialects, I suppose). I wouldn't roll an r in Japanese when saying Ōre or anything else—in fact I'd actively avoid it because of the yakuza connection. -- BenRG (talk) 19:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

But the alveolar flap is fairly common, right? At least that's what I think I'm hearing when they say "Akira" in the movie Akira, e.g. here [10]. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:42, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Watching anime wouldn' t help me in this case, since Orre is only mentioned in two video games with no voice actors(unless you count the Pokemon).I'm the OP. Ohyeahstormtroopers6 (talk) 15:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I just saw that on Bulbapedia [11]... They also say that the name is a pun on the English word "ore" which is pronounced just like "or." So that might have influenced the spelling and pronunciation. Still, based on what I know, I'd say /Oh-reh/ or /Oh-deh/, unless you can do the flap, then say /Oh-ɾeh/. But since this is a made up name in Japanese influenced by English, I'm pretty sure people will say it many different ways. So you could try asking at Bulbapedia or other Pokemon sites. Even if they don't know Japanese or IPA they might be able to tell you how they commonly say it or hear it. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:48, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

It is true that the trilled 'r' does not exist in Japanese, but you must understand that Pokemon are meant to sound exotic. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 16:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The Japanese Pokemon names generally don't seem as exotic-sounding as the English names. Many of them are obviously Japanese (Pikachū, Fushigidane, Hitokage, Zenigame). Although オーレ does sound foreign, it seems unlikely to me that it was meant to be pronounced with a rolled r. The "Orre" spelling was probably picked by English-speaking localizers, just like the English Pokemon names. -- BenRG (talk) 19:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Gemination (doubling) of consonants does occur in Japanese, see Japanese_phonology#Gemination which helpfully neglects specifically mentioning /r/ but does say any consonant from a foreign language borrowing can be geminated, even if it is not geminated in the lending language, and even if it is voiced, which is forbidden in native Japanese words. Trilling and gemination are not excatly the same thing, but more like far-reaching in, say, rhotic Scottish English. μηδείς (talk) 19:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think r is ever doubled in this way. If it were it would be written オッレ rather than オーレ. -- BenRG (talk) 19:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, 'r' is never geminated in Japanese. It may be, as said above, that the (probably American or Japanese) localizer has used the double 'r' to demonstrate the usual 'flapped r' of Japanese, not knowing that this sound is actually standard British English anyway. But hey, we didn't create this language.... Oh, no, hang on.... :) However, perhaps the localizer used the first 'r' to show length of the previous 'o' vowel, which is normal in non-rhotic dialects. I can understand the OP's dilemma, though, as 'Orre' as it stands would be pronounced in English as 'or' in both rhotic and non-rhotic dialects. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 19:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Arabic transcription request

What is the Arabic text in http://lcdgdamas.org/uploads/ngrey/banner.jpg? I want to put the Arabic in Lycée Charles de Gaulle (Syria). Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 17:28, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

المدرسة الفرنسیة فی دمشق شارل دیغول Omidinist (talk) 19:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 23:30, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Publically

"Publically" seems to be gaining ground over "publicly". I'm seeing it more and more often, even written by people I hitherto respected.

Now, I thought the rule was that if an -ically word exists, then the corresponding -ical word must also exist.

• mathematics --> mathematical --> mathematically
• nautical --> nautically
• magic --> magical --> magically
• logic --> logical --> logically
• physical --> physically
• chemical --> chemically

BUT

• phonic --> phonicly (there being no "phonical")
• sonic --> sonicly (there being no "sonical")
• public --> publicly (there being no "publical")

BUT

• history --> historic --> historically (because the word "historical" also exists, and that is used as the base of the adverb)
• hysteria --> hysteric(s) --> hysterically (ditto)

Is this rule watertight? If not, what is the rule? Or is there even a hard-and-fast rule at all? Do we just have to remember which words are -icly and which are -ically? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:49, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/Typos/Archive 3#Misspelling of "publicly". (June and July 2013).

—Wavelength (talk) 22:56, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Be careful what you wish for, because sometimes you get it. Here is a 365-page treatment on the topic. You wanted a reference, you got it. --Jayron32 22:59, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Spelling#Misspelling of "publicly" (June and July 2013) (version of 16:29, 15 January 2015).

—Wavelength (talk) 23:03, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

EO dates "publicly" to the 1580s and "publically" to 1812 or earlier,[12] with the amusing note that a lot of words ending in "cally" are pronounced as if they were spelled "cly". Presumably it's easier to get one word's spelling changed than all the others. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

See "publicly" and "publically" at Google Ngram Viewer.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:56, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

See “Publicly” and “publically” | The Stroppy Editor.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Now, that is most enlightening, Wavelength. It puts to shame my "rule" above. Hectically, tragically, archaically, cryptically, idiotically and probably many others, are all formed from the -ic word, and there is no corresponding -ical word (hectical, idiotical ...). I was not aware till now that "publicly" is a unique oddity ... the only adverb ending in –icly formed from an adjective that ends in –ic. Most intriguing. This also means that there are no such words as 'phonicly' and 'sonicly'. (Talk about proceeding from a false premise. I'm obviously in top form today.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

There's probably some sort of hypercorrection or related phenomenon going on here. There's an expected ic->ical->ically sequence, and when the "ical" form doesn't exist, there seems to be a hypercorrection (which has become actual proper spelling in many cases) to simply skip it to go ic->ically rather than ic->icly. --Jayron32 01:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The irony being that in almost every case they'd end up with the correct spelling. "Publicly" is apparently the sole exception. But that's very satisying, in the sense that we expect every English rule to have at least one exception, usually many. If there were no exceptions in this case, that would be an exception to the rule that there is always an exception, and that would obviously spell the end of civilisation as we know it. But then, if there always has to be an exception, doesn't that mean .... nah, I ain't goin' there. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Here's a question that just came to me: is -ic treated as an actual morpheme in "public" or is "public" considered a single morpheme. That is, we have situations like history -> historic which demonstrate the morpheme "ic", but for words where "ic" occurs coincidentally, maybe the -ically form is not expected. After all, "public" is a noun where "historic" and "sonic" are not. Maybe that has something to do with it. --Jayron32 02:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Magic, music, metric, psychic, logic et al are (or can be) nouns too. They all take -ally and not just -ly. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but mage, muse, meter, psycho, logo, are all known morphemes in English. Is there any "publ-" known morphemes that would take an "ic"? --Jayron32 03:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)