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March 13

Elder/older

Is the sentence He had an elder brother correct? Or should it always be He had an older brother? And why? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

As you're talking about a person, you can use either. Bazza (talk) 10:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I've been reverted in the past by someone who insisted that "elder" is correct and "older" isn't. My view is that, as "older" is more likely to be understood by more readers, it's preferable in articles. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:16, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Certainly elder has many meanings, although the context will probably nearly always give the intended meaning. Does "elder brother" imply he is the elder of (only) two? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

When comparing two live people, the elder is by definition older than the younger, but that changes when one party dies. Older pertains to the relative ages of live people. The age of a dead person stops increasing the moment they die. Elder pertains to birth order, which can never change. Example: My elder brother was originally older than me, but he died when he was aged five and I was aged two. Three years after he died, I turned five and caught up to him. I am now aged 38, much older than he will ever be, but he will always be my elder brother simply because he was born before me. (Not a real example). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:41, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks, Jack. That makes sense. So it sounds as if older is specific to a given point in time, while elder is the more general term which applies for all times? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

There's probably something to Jack's usage, however for most modern speakers of English, the two are used in such free variation that I doubt that anyone recognizes the difference. I would call it an WP:ENGVAR issue, which means that people shouldn't change from one usage to the other, unless it is clearly wrong. Calling someone an "older brother" as a phrase should be exactly equivalent to calling someone an "elder brother", excepting for the very specific phrasing Jack uses, which wouldn't come up much. --Jayron32 15:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree that not all speakers will notice the possible distinction, but I think Jack's example and description also fits well with historical figures and the names we refer to them by: e.g. pliny the elder and pliny the younger. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:38, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Jack's comment is correct, and the fact that there are people who speak sloppily is not a reason for writing sloppily at wikipedia.

As a side note, I just read "if you would of read" last night in a comment on a column (where the same person starts off calling someone "asinine" and "stupid"!) and "if he'd have said" in the text of an opinion article the night before last. μηδείς (talk) 16:57, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Jeez! I was thinking about this last night. I mean, about the elder and older issue. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 18:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

• Inheritance is where this mattered most, traditionally. The earliest-born surviving son would get the title and the bulk of the estate. Of course, he would also be the oldest surviving son, but it wasn't his age per se that made him the beneficiary, but the fact that he was born before any of his brothers. Maybe a subtle distinction, but not an unimportant one. It certainly mattered in the case of twin brothers born the same day; legally they were always the same age throughout their lives (until the first one died), but the first-born was also legally senior. He was the elder, despite not being older (except if we're counting lifespans in minutes and seconds).
• Also, politeness demanded that one never enquire about another's age. If your friend introduced you to his brother, you could later ask your friend whether the brother were his elder brother, but you would never ask whether he were his older brother. (I know, it's an identical question in practical terms, but these things mattered and are what made Britain great.) You could avoid the pitfall by asking if he were his younger brother, because younger is the opposite of both elder and older. But then, you'd risk offending your friend by suggesting he were older than his brother when he may in fact be younger. But then, if the friend were a true friend, he'd assume good faith and know that you were enquiring solely about birth order, and most certainly not about age relativity. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:40, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Here's an example of taking politeness to an extreme:[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:30, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Or, if you were a Wikipedian, you might say "Please provide further information about your birth order." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:48, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Origin of the phrase, 'dead ass'

So, whilst riding the train I heard a phrase I haven't heard or used since I was a teenager, that being 'dead ass'. I never thought about it back then, but now it just sounds like an odd phrase to adult me, and it's one for which I can't imagine the actual origin. It's short for 'dead ass serious', but why dead ass? I know the expressions 'dead serious,' but when and how did an ass enter the equation? Anyone know the origin? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 22 Adar 5775 13:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

It's an intensifier in Americanese. Like in Br.Eng we would say 'dead fucking serious'. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 14:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Some British people might say "rather serious" or "quite dry". lol Martinevans123 (talk) 14:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, well, we do seem to be civilized enough to not shout "Oh My God!" at just about everything we see. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 15:02, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Sir William, I don't know if you're familiar with the academic blog 'Language Log', but I recall that a recent-ish post there (and the subsequent comments) dealt extensively with the use of the word "ass" (in British English, "arse") in such colloquialisms. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 14:04, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Funny thing. I just overheard a dude saying into his phone that when he was a kid he was a "badass dude". I too wondered about that particular meaning. Bus stop (talk) 14:10, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

In Americanese it means he has a strong character. In Br.Eng it would either mean he has something wrong with his backside (bottom), or has a badly behaved donkey, neither of which I would recommend bragging about. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 14:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

In American English, "ass" is often used as a colloquial intensifier. The Wikipedia article on Intensifier even notes the usages "sweet-ass" and "cold-ass". Here's a journal article "Serious-ass morphology: The anal emphatic in English" which discusses the usage. Here is Language Log's take on its usage. Here is another article on the subject. I hope all that helps. --Jayron32 15:15, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Sadly, that "Serious-ass morphology" seems to only link to an abstract, not a full paper. I looked around a bit and found only this [2], which seems to be a shady pay wall that might very well just give me the same pdf of paper abstracts... but if anyone can find the full paper, that would be nice (such a great title too!) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Surely you mean "such a hot ass title too!" Martinevans123 (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

These linguists seem to have all the fun, here's "Nonliteral, Non-gluteal, Semi-referential, Off-standard, Synecdochic, Supermetonymic, Paradoxical, Existential, Ever-lovin Ass". Still behind a paywall, but at least many academics will have access to Wiley journals. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:08, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Relevent XKCD comic Iapetus (talk) 11:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear, badass doesn't just mean "having a strong character". It suggests a strong character, but specifically a somewhat amoral, reckless, and possibly dangerous character. Marco polo (talk) 18:45, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

It depends. Someone once called me "a badass word guy", and it brought a tear to my eye. (Torn eyes are a bitch to sew up.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the first construction of this sort was "half-assed" (or "half-arsed" to we Britons) which Etymology Online dates to 1935 and suggests was "...perhaps a humorous mispronunciation of haphazard." Alansplodge (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I have never met anyone who had a single buttock. But then, also in Br.Eng, we say "can't be arsed", to mean "can't be bothered". I'm not sure how it is possible to actually 'arse' somebody. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 20:48, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

You seem to have led a very sheltered life, KageTora. I would explain, but I've got fundamental "wiki-seebs". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

No idea what 'wiki-seebs' are. Perhaps you can enlighten me. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 21:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Monty Python introduced the world to a man who claimed to have three buttocks, but he refrained from giving a visual demonstration for fear of offending the radio audience. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, "ceebs". Martinevans123 (talk) 21:20, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Right, at first I thought you were referring to Cbeebies. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 22:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

"meh" Martinevans123 (talk) 10:34, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

This book on slang "The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English" dates the adverb meaning absolutely of dead-ass to 1971 in the US and it had slightly earlier usages an adjective meaning lack of energy (US 1958) or the noun seated buttocks in repose (US 1950). --Modocc (talk) 21:48, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

How close does this come to "deadbeat"? (.. as you fellows have it, over in the Colonies, chortle) Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Etymonline says: ""worthless sponging idler," 1863, American English slang, perhaps originally Civil War slang, from dead (adj.) + beat. Earlier used colloquially as an adjectival expression to mean "completely beaten" (1821), and perhaps the base notion is of "worn out, good for nothing." It is noted in a British source from 1861 as a term for "a pensioner."In England "dead beat" means worn out, used up. ... But here, "dead beat" is used, as a substantive, to mean a scoundrel, a shiftless, swindling vagabond. We hear it said that such a man is a beat or a dead beat. The phrase thus used is not even good slang. It is neither humorous nor descriptive. There is not in it even a perversion of the sense of the words of which it is composed. Its origin is quite beyond conjecture. ["Americanisms," in "The Galaxy," January 1878]. It also was used of a kind of regulating mechanism in pendulum clocks." KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 21:57, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

• Since this is the language desk, I hope it is in order to object to the annoying and completely redundant use of "So" at the very start of this thread. Somebody needs to fight against this creeping malaise. 86.152.163.88 (talk) 21:02, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • It is not Wikipedia's purpose to "right great wrongs". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:21, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • "Completely redundant" is an example of complete redundancy.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
    • You can say that again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Ah wow, sorry I didn't reply sooner as I was somewhat overwhelmed by the number of replies so quickly. Thanks for hunting up all that info, guys, it was both enlightening and hilarious in equal measure. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 27 Adar 5775 22:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

ISIS flag

ISIS flag

The flag of the ISIS appears to have some Arabic writing. I don't know any Arabic, I can't even read the writing. What does it say? JIP | Talk 18:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The words on the top are the beginning of the shahada, and the part in the white oval is the seal of Muhammad. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:31, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The writing on the top says "La illah l'illah" ("There is no god but God"); as the previous poster says, this is the beginning of the "shahada", or "witness", the creed of Islam - you say this to affirm that you have made submission (which is what the word "islam" means) to God and accepted the message of his prophet Mohammed. The writing in the white shield says "Allah Rasul Mohammed" ("God Prophet Mohammed"). PiCo (talk) 07:30, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

The second one is read from bottom to top, here from right to left (محمد رسول الله) meaning "Muhammad is God's prophet". Omidinist (talk) 19:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

March 14

pronunciation of name

How do you pronounce the name Wythoff? Double sharp (talk) 20:54, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

You mean in English? I'd ask at the math desk. — kwami (talk) 20:56, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

I think he is asking how you, personally, pronounce it. I would say /'Vəithof/. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 21:52, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

My rather limited knowledge of Dutch suggests something like "vite" (to rhyme with "white") and "hoff", but hopefully somebody will correct me. Alansplodge (talk) 21:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

If you're asking about Dutch pronunciation, Wythoff (also spelled Wijthoff) himself would probably have said [ʋɛitɦɔf]. The "hoff" part sounds just like one would expect in English, while the [ɛi]-dipthong does not really exist in English, but is somewhat similar to 'ay' as in 'may'. - Lindert (talk) 22:37, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Added that to the article: thank you! Double sharp (talk) 16:09, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe my pronunciation was the Afrikaans one. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 08:04, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

March 15

Piz Daint

What is the approximate pronunciation (I can't read IPA) of this Swiss mountain, please? 129.215.230.248 (talk) 16:10, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Like "Pits Dye-nt".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 17:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Rhymes with "eats pint" might be more helpful. The English pits has a short (lax) vowel, /ɪ/, while Piz would sound more like "Pete's" to an English speaker. μηδείς (talk) 20:09, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.230.130 (talk) 10:35, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Many many pizzes. No sound sample, for copyright reasons, but Franz Hohler's (where-I-live) famous "Totemügerli" (a spooky story in Bernese gibberish, yet one is still able to get more than just the gist of it) has a cousin in Romansh gibberish titled "Il malur da la fuorcla" which includes the line "e tumbettan a bassa a schnestra e vadrets il Piz Ot, il Piz Nair, il Piz Blanc, il Piz Grond - e tuota la pizzeria". Completely irrelevant. Posted it anyway. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:03, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is no sound sample for that particular mountain on Commons, but there is for many others mountains in the Engiadine. Check out these two, which both have similar sounds:  Roh-vallader-Piz Plavna Dadaint.ogg  and  Roh-putèr-Piz Glüschaint.ogg . --Terfili (talk) 12:26, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Why did the hard "T" suddenly start being pronounced in neanderthal?

I know pronouncing neanderthal with a hard "T" may be more "correct", since they come from the "Neandertal" valley, and if spelled "th", it would take a hard "T", but I was wondering if anyone knows how it suddenly developed, at least in American English, what had always and consistently been pronounce as a normal "th" (as in "think") suddenly started being pronounced as a hard "T", starting about 10 years ago and ever more so since then. No one in the U.S. for decades ever pronounced it other than with a th, and I've even seen lately the spelling neandertal. Was there some event that caused this, some person who decided to make it their mission to "correct" this?--74.101.125.5 (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure "nobody" pronounced it like this earlier? From experience, I'd warn against over-estimating the reliability of one's own assessment of what is or isn't common in one's speech community. Just because you became aware of the [t] pronunciation "about 10 years ago" doesn't mean it didn't exist earlier. For what it's worth, all the English dictionaries I have on my shelf (and most of them are significantly older than ten years, though most of them are more British- than American-based) list the [t] pronunciation exclusively. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:39, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• Tal itself means valley, the term means "Valley of the Neander River". Thal is just an archaic spelling, and it was still pronounced "tal" even though spelt "thal". As people have heard the Neandertal pronunciation, they have picked up on the foreignism. See hyperforeignism for what happens when that process goes too far. I myself say nee-æn-dər-thal as I was taught in childhood, and Nay-ahn-der-tahl (the German pronunciation) in free variation. μηδείς (talk) 17:45, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

The valley was named for Joachim Neander; its river is the Düssel. —Tamfang (talk) 02:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's spelt Duessel, but it's pronounced Neander. μηδείς (talk) 16:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm stopping this sketch, it's getting too silly. —Tamfang (talk) 05:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

(EC)I don't know of any particular 'events' which caused the shift (but I can guess that it was caused by listening to academics on TV), but the fact of the matter is the word is German, which does not have a 'th' sound. I have heard English people pronouncing it as 'ni-and-er-thol' and also 'ni-and-er-tal'. Neither are actually correct, as it should be /nɛanderta:l/, or something like that. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 17:51, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

It's funny when you hear cockneys speaking about them, because it always sounds like 'Knee and the toe' :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 17:58, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there's a lot of variation on both sides of the pond. The OED has Brit. /nɪˈandətɑːl/ , /nɪˈandəθəl/ , U.S. /niˈændərˌθɔl/ , /niˈændərˌθɑl/ , /niˈændərˌtɔl/ , /niˈændərˌtɑl/" (and that covers only the most common variations). Dbfirs 18:19, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Among Americans, at least, there has been a very widespread effort to diminish the extent to which stolen see James Nicoll's famous aphorism on English and vocabulary foreign words and terms have been anglicized. The scientific community has been in the forefront of this, so I'm not surprised that the loss of the bogus "th" sound has been fairly quick (and longer than ten years ago, in the circles in which I travel). --Orange Mike | Talk 04:02, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• Of interesting note, the -tal or -thal in "Neandert(h)al" is etymologically related to the word "dollar", see Thaler, and Dollar#History. Thus we have three pronounciations (-th-, -t-, and -d-) showing up in English usage from the same original word meaning "valley". --Jayron32 05:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Jayron32 -- The English cognate is "dale", a little archaic, but still seen in placenames, and until recently in phrases like "over hill and dale"... AnonMoos (talk) 06:38, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• "Me no like TH sound. It hard to say. Me make T sound now." StuRat (talk) 06:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I have likewise noticed the phenomenon raised by the OP. It might just be an increased awareness of correct pronunciation, thanks to televised programs about science. Another example would be Halley's Comet, which was always pronounced Haley's in my youth, but the return of the comet in the 1980s seemed to spawn a change in the pronunciation the rhyme with Halle (Berry). Further back, there is the matter of Attila the Hun, which once tended to rhyme with vanilla, but over time the emphasis on the initial A has become (somewhat) more prevalent. Or Mt. Everest, supposedly once pronounced with an initial long E, but nowadays with an initial short E. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:25, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Halley's was traditionally often pronounced with [æ] until the band Bill Haley & His Comets confused things in the 1950s... AnonMoos (talk) 06:44, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I always pronounce it with [æ], but I have read that Halley himself said it like "Hawley". Maybe we're all wrong. (Side note: I've never heard anyone refer to Mt //Eev-rəst//, but that's how its eponym called himself.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:45, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Peru national football team

Today's featured article is on the Peru national football team.

Is there really any linguistic variety of English in which that is a natural-sounding phrase? Here we have a noun used appositively ("Peru") coming before an unambiguous adjective ("national"). I never learned English order of modifiers from books, so I can't quote the rule that makes that wrong, but I can say that I find it jarring as a native speaker.

This seems to be the common convention on Wikipedia for sports teams; I am not sure why, as I am almost sure that almost all other English media would call them the Peruvian national [football|soccer] team. This is of course not really the right venue to argue for changing that convention, nor do I have time, energy, or interest to wade into that probably fruitless battle. But I'm curious whether there's anywhere but WP where this wouldn't sound just plain weird. --Trovatore (talk) 18:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

This is just my speculating wildly, but methinks that wikipedia often uses such quaint terminology as a catch-all means to avoid offending certain people. While no reasonable man would ever object to Peruvian, some actually may to Taiwainese, as opposed to Taiwan, Republic of China, or even Chinese Taipei.

As a side note: The New York Times refers to the parliament in Turkey as the "Turk parliament" because (according to their style guide, at least) Turkish is an ethnicity, not a nationality. By that same token, wikipedia has articles relating to barriers, as opposed to fences or walls.

Pine (talk) 20:50, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Then the NYT style guide is a ass. To me it makes more sense the other way ’round. —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm a non-native speaker, but on Wikipedia I'm mostly into articles related to football, particularly national team-level football (as opposed to club-level football).

To me, titles like this read as the "Peru" national team; the national team that goes by the name "Peru" - an easiest and least ambiguous way to indicate which national team the article is about. It allows distinguishing "Ireland" from "Republic of Ireland", "Palestine" from "Mandatory Palestine", or "Congo" from "DR Congo", and saves the trouble of building adjectival forms from "Turks and Caicos Islands", "São Tomé and Príncipe" or "Central African Republic".

For some of those, the format "national team of <name>" could also be an option. But for "Tahiti", neither "Tahitian national team" nor "National team of Tahiti" would be a fine enough option, because, confusingly, the team known with that name actually represents the entire French Polynesia and not just the island of Tahiti.

That's my opinion. Maybe some discussions on the topic do exist somewhere in the archives of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football or somewhere else. --Theurgist (talk) 21:38, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

If "Tahiti" is the actual name of the team, then I'd suggest parenthetical disambiguation: Tahiti (association football team) or some such.

The reasons you and Pine have offered are interesting, and thanks for those. I still think it's a very unnatural expression in English. Does anyone have any comment on that, from a language standpoint rather than a Wikipedia-practice one? --Trovatore (talk) 22:41, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

On a related note, see a move discussion of 2010 (the "political entries" part there should probably read "political entities"). --Theurgist (talk) 13:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Japanese

Why does Japanese have so many borrowed words and phrases from English for things that already existed in Japanese? For example, "chance", "timing", "thank you", "okay". I understand why words for things that originate in English like "personal computer" are borrowed. My Little Question Can't be This Interesting (talk) 20:13, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Ever since the allied victory of World War II, American films, television shows, music, and other cultural forms have saturated much of the world. As a result of this, the younger generations often create new, English-based words in their language. Not just Japanese, mind you, but also many other tongues now exhibit signs of this corrup—er, linguistic interference.

In France, for instance, one will frequently hear "le poster" (would properly be "l'affiche"); in Spain, he would encounter "el aparcamiento" (would properly be "el estacionamiento"); in Mexico—oftener than not—"el chet" (would properly be "el aviòn de reacciòn"); and in Haiti—practically all the time—"mwen machin" (would properly be "ma voiture"). Just like more than half of English's vocabulary came from Latin, perhaps we'll see a day when English-derived words constitute an even greater percentage of all the world's dictionaries.

Though Rome failed to make an urbs out of the orbis, America may yet bring all the world's urban areas into her orbit.

Pine (talk) 21:12, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't have given a better answer, but I shall just add something. Japanese has been borrowing from other languages for over a thousand years, most notably Chinese. More recently, however, it has borrowed words from Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, and German, not just English, which is actually more recent than those, as the answer above implies. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 00:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

An English speaker will always give more weight to the Engrish terms he hears, just for recognizing them. I imagine it's the same for the rest. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:16, March 16, 2015 (UTC)

3Q. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 08:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

KageTora: "3Q"? As in "3Q ベリー マッチ"? ("3Q, 3Q ベリー マッチ"... 恵比寿 has left the building.)--Shirt58 (talk) 09:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

That is exactly what I mean, as it is pronounced 'san-kyuu' which is the Japanese pronunciation of 'thank you'. It is also written 'QQQ'. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:02, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

All Greek to me. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:01, March 17, 2015 (UTC)

Or the British Empire, really. That's why India, for example favours British spellings. No doubt the growth of American influence during the decline of the empire helped reinforce the use and expansion of English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Twinpinesmall's mention of Spanish and French reminds me of an incident. My father speaks fluent Spanish. In Spain (in 1970) he learned the word ordinador for 'computer', from French ordinateur. Later in Mexico he used that word and was not understood; there they said computador. —Tamfang (talk) 05:49, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

We have Japanese_pop_culture_in_the_United_States but no American culture in Japan (or similar, as far as I can tell). My understanding is that in post-war Japan, many English terms and American trends are borrowed and seen as "cool". Anyone have decent refs for this claim? Obviously it is a gross generality, exceptions apply, etc. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

As far as puroresu goes, New Japan Pro Wrestling liked the Calgary guys (and sent their own to train), and All Japan Pro Wrestling preferred the Texans, likewise sending theirs.

Something about cowboys, I guess. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:28, March 17, 2015 (UTC)

March 16

So

Why do folks begin sentences with the word "So"?! I find this annoying in the extreme. It seems to be more of a trend in spoken English than in written, but it's still very painful. If anyone heard last week's In Our Time on BBC Radio 4 they may have been as irritated as I was with the responses of Anne Green who answered nearly every one of Bragg's questions with the word "So". Martinevans123 (talk) 12:12, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Coincidentally, something similar was asked here less than a month ago: "So". ---Sluzzelin talk 12:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, here's the thing. This entire discussion was had less than a month ago.

It comes down to two answers: (1) sentence connectives are a universal phenomenon, with the ancient Hittite language having so, ta, and nu; and (2) overuse of so is a verbal tick.

The below is largely a laboursome repetition full of ranting and off topic statements that should be hatted. μηδείς (talk) 03:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

So. That was quite a discussion! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

And there's an older thread here. Deor (talk) 12:25, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Seems this topic has already hit the big time. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

There are countless annoying speech habits. Why does this one in particular offend you, presumably more than those others do? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry. I hate them all equally. This one just seems to be getting really popular. It's almost as tragic as "Here's the thing....". Aaaaaaarrrrgggghhhhhhh!!!!! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

So It Goes - good enough for Vonnegut is good enough for me -- there's nothing wrong with beginning a sentence with "so", not in terms of grammar, nor syntax, nor semantics. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

There is something wrong if someone can't answer any question without beginning their answer with "So, ". Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

There are probably forum websites where people can go to grouse about things like this, judging by the fact that people like to talk about them so much. One of my !favorites is "The thing is, is that ...". But "why" is a question without a very useful answer. Many people speak imprecisely, and it bothers some more than others. On the positive side, I suspect things have improved in the past few centuries. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

It's just a "stall" to collect one's thoughts, the same way as "Well" and "You know" and others, and they're all a lot better than "Uhhhh..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:38, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

In that case, why is it used when writing on the internet, when you have plenty of time to collect your thoughts before posting? Do these people use it when writing English language essays for school? "So, Napoleon was, like, on his way back from Elba, and, like, he met Ney's army, which were, like, waiting for him, innit?....." KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 20:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

U wot M8? - Wow much angry, such prescriptive! - Get off my lawn! Ppl writ &txt &talk lots of ways - code switching - No prlbm with in-group Mutual_intelligibility - linguistic register ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 21:14, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Do people in America routinely cross your lawn to get to the house, or do they actually use the designated pathway to the door, like just about everyone else? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 22:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

So Be It. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

It's all part of the pop culture way of operating. You know, the culture that believes that the only differences between singing and speaking are: in singing you shout rather than speak, and vary the pitch here and there at random; and that anyone can do it and become an amaaaazing overnight viral sensation celebrity idol without a second's training. Hopefully. Just the latest manifestation of the teenage rebel thing continued into adulthood, that goes "No way would I ever want to emulate my parents' example, or even acknowledge their existence; but it's OK - nay, mandatory - to exactly duplicate all the other rebels I associate with and look up to. While all the while maintaining an outward pretence of individuality". Would-be iconoclasts who crave the approval of others have a tough road to hoe. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:37, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

This, for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Little Britain does excellent parodies of how young people speak, especially in the Saaarf. Vicky Pollard is the character. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 21:41, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

"Does this wiki look bovvered??" Martinevans123 (talk) 22:02, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

"I soooooooo can't believe you just said that. But that girl in Class 3, you know, the one, like, with that wristband, she's got, like, a boyfriend, and like, he drives a car." KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 22:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

(Entire audience, in unison): "Cool!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

|}

^When you collapse a discussion, you should sign. Take responsibility for your actions. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:33, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

That was BenRG at 05:53, 17 March 2015. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

You are absolutely right about its being annoying in the extreme. In annoyingness, I would place answering questions with sentences beginning "So" even above "The thing is, is that ..." or intoning every sentence as if it were a question. 31.51.134.71 (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

March 17

Translation from Latin

I'm looking for a translation for this sentence which is part of a botanical description written by Ferdinand von Mueller:

Caroli Wilson cujus imprimis auxiliis detectioneum hujus plantae praepulchrae demus.

Thanks, --Melburnian (talk) 00:35, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Are you certain that what you posted is a complete sentence, and not a sentence fragment? Are you certain that he wrote "detectioneum" and not "detectionum" or "detectionem"? Are you certain that you have not omitted one or more words?

—Wavelength (talk) 01:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC) and 01:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not transcribe that quite right:

"Caroli Wilson, cujus imprimis auxiliis detectionem hujus plantae praepulchrae debemus." The original version is here for context. --Melburnian (talk) 06:04, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

It's still not a complete sentence, but the continuation of the preceding sentence (the dot before it is an abbreviation dot, not a full stop). Rough translation: "I have named [this plant species] after the name of the famous Carl Wilson, to whose initial help we owe the detection of this splendid plant." Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, that gives me the clarification I needed.--Melburnian (talk) 07:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Paterissa

• 1) When was this word first used meaning a crosier? Or who might know?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
• 2) Also do different designs represent status or rank of some type?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 15:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

German for mint-flavored stomache-pain elixir

I occasionally take a prescription elixir for abdominal cramps. My co-worker used to accuse me teasingly of drinking on the job. I told him, Es ist nur mintzeschmeckedes Magenschmertzwasser mit ja ein Bisschen Alkohol. (I.e, "It's only mint-flavored tummy-ache water with, yes, a little bit of alcohol.") I am curious if a native speaker can say whether the compound words I made up are well-formed, and if the whole sentence is cromulent. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 20:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the German word for 'cherry' Kirsch, and not Mintze? Sorry, I didn't read your translation. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 20:50, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

No, you were correct to catch that; I was sloppy, and have fixed the header. The original formulation was cherry-flavored, but they have changed it to mint for some reason. μηδείς (talk) 20:59, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, some of your words are nearly correctly formed, but unidiomatic. Others are less correct ;-). Magenschmerzwasser would be a correct word (Schmertz with 't' went out a long time ago), but the idiomatic word is "Magenwasser". "Es ist nur ein Magenwasser mit Pefferminzgeschmack und einem Hauch von Alkohol" is my suggestion. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:09, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Pfefferminzgeschmack, right? Lesgles (talk) 22:31, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's just mint-, not peppermint-flavored, and Pfefferminzgeschmack means peppermint flavoring, the noun. I wanted to say something like minzausschmeckend if that's possible. In any case, I did shorten the term to Magenwasser, which seems to be a happy coincidence or guess on my part. When in the world did Schmertz become Schmerz? Was that with the recent spelling reform? μηδείς (talk) 01:07, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

No, "Schmertz" went out before any of the books I own was printed. And I do have an early copy of Dominik's Das stählerne Geheimnis. Looking at Google Ngram, it seems to have been quite out by 1800. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:43, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Ach, mein Hertz! How about ausschmeckend? any good? μηδείς (talk) 02:52, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Duden doesn't know "ausschmecken" which doesn't mean you can't form it, and it can be found, but here the verb is transitive and you wouldn't apply it to the elixir, but to the person doing the tasting/sampling. When you schmeck something aus, you keep it between your tongue and palate for a long time, absorbing all aspects of the taste until it tastes no more. Similar to the way auskosten is used. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Medeis, the native speakers can correct me, but compounds ending in present participles of stative verbs usually start with adverbs, not nouns, so minzschmeckend* sounds really awkward. More typical is a compound like übelriechend. You can write "nach Minze schmeckend", but that is a bit stilted. Mit Minzgeschmack is more idiomatic. Marco polo (talk) 14:58, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I was trying to form ausshmecken by analogy with aussehen, which doesn't mean to look at intently, but to appear. I wonder if schmecken has an English cognate. μηδείς (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Medeis, the English cognate of schmecken is "to smack", as in "that smacks of cowardice". Originally, it had the same meaning as in German, "to taste (intransitive)". Schmecken can be (and probably most often is) used intransitively, unlike sehen, so no form analogous to aussehen has been needed. By the way, Geschmack usually means "flavor" or "taste" rather than "flavoring". Marco polo (talk) 18:37, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

So, to sum up, "Magenwasser mit Minzgeschmack?" μηδείς (talk) 17:34, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Laboursome?

Is laboursome a proper word in English? I have used it sometimes, but now I am confused as I cannot find it in my printed dictionaries (two of them, one English—Finnish, one English-only). --Pxos (talk) 22:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

It's in the Oxford English Dictionary, which sits behind a paywall. It's absence from the free http://www.oxforddictionaries.com indicates to me that it's not a common word. —Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

(EC)It does exist, but not used very often. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 23:47, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

The term "worrisome" means "causing worry". So does "laboursome" mean "causing labour"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:48, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

(Yes, if gruesome, handsome, and lonesome mean causing grue, hand, and lone, respectively.) ―Mandruss ☎ 00:12, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Handsome originally meant easy to handle or ready at hand.[3] Gruesome includes a non-English root and means to cause fear or shuddering.[4] Lonesome means alone to a considerable degree.[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:14, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I have used it in the sense "requiring hard work". If it really is that rare, can you English-men still understand it without effort, or can there be a person who doesn't understand it easily? What word should I use instead? --Pxos (talk) 23:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I've never heard it in my life, and would have to guess its meaning from context. The OED says that meaning is "rare or dialectical". The only current def they give (though perhaps at least archaic) is with a ship, being subject to labour. (Labour here meaning pitching or rolling violently in heavy seas.)

Oh, the word you're looking for is probably laborious. A less common one is toilsome. — kwami (talk) 00:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, I guess that I have picked up an unhealthy number of English words from watching too many films like this. --Pxos (talk) 00:35, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Another word to consider is arduous. Marco polo (talk) 14:49, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Heh. I heard that word used last night on a TV news report about an AFL football team from Western Australia that played a game in Melbourne and was unable to get a flight back to Perth when they wanted it, so they had to stay overnight in a hotel in Melbourne. No cost to the players, nice clean sheets etc. Please meet the new "arduous". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:46, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

So does a laboursome ship make the voyage arduous while throwing up repeatedly can be toilsome in front of the laborious seamen? (This is not a stupid attempt at a pun, I am trying to find out the nuances of the several words that have been suggested to me.) --Pxos (talk) 21:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

March 19

Passato remoto

In Italian, verbs ending in -ere are often irregular in passato remoto, but I'd like to know about the regular ones. There are two endings for 1st-person singular (-ei/-etti), 3rd-person singular (-?/-ette) and plural (-erono/-ettero) respectively. The question mark is either -é or è because sources I've found don't agree with each other. I know there is confusion about "perché" and "perchè" even among Italians because people from different regions pronounce it either closed or open, but "perché" is considered the only correct form. Then how about passato remoto? Compared to -are (-ò) and -ire (-ì), one could think it's -è, but it:Passato remoto says it's -é. It seems that even my printed dictionary isn't sure about it. It knows both -ei/-etti and -erono/-ettero, but only gives one option for the 3rd-person singular (-ette). Is the acute or the grave accent correct? --2.245.119.88 (talk) 04:02, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Latin distinguishes –ēre (more regular, less common) from –ĕre (less regular, very common); if Italian conflates them, that could cause some confusion. —Tamfang (talk) 07:51, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

See the 30 entries listed at User:Wavelength/About Italian/Accent shifts.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:17, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I've often had difficulty finding definitive answers on acute-v-grave final accents in Italian, but in this case I'm pretty sure it should be acute. It doesn't come up an awful lot because (i) passato remoto is a bit uncommon in the first place, (ii) most second-conjugation verbs have "irregular" passati remoti (not really irregular, usually, but not falling into the most common paradigm), and (iii) for most "regular" second-conjugation verbs, the -ette form is more usual. The only exception to (iii) that pops to mind is potere, where I think potette just "sounds bad" to the Italian ear, because of the repetition. And as I say, I'm fairly sure that it's poté rather than potè, but that's just my own intuition, which mayb be wrong.

Just a tangent that may be interesting to someone here: There's an interesting difference in meaning between the imperfect and the two perfect tenses (passato remoto, passato prossimo) for potere. Potere means "can", so its past tense would be "could" in English. But if you mean "could" in the sense of "had the ability to, whether or not it was brought to fruition", you use the imperfect poteva. The two perfect forms (ha potuto or poté) both tend to imply that the thing was actually successfully accomplished. --Trovatore (talk) 17:52, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

See "perse; perdé; perdette" at http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/Italian/perdere.html.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:41, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Spanish grain elevators

What's the typical term for grain elevator in Spanish? I'm finding translations as "elevador de granos", but I don't want to use a calque by accident. To my surprise, there's no es:wp article on these things. I'm using File:Idaville elevator complex.jpg at Idaville, Indiana, and I want to do the same thing at es:Idaville (Indiana). Nyttend (talk) 16:47, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

No need to worry, Nyttend, elevador de granos is indeed the proper term. See the Portuguese article when the Spanish one is missing. It won't always be the same or exact, but it will usually put you on the right track or confirm your intuition. PS, next time you are in Spanish joint, ask for una ensalada de avogados bien picados. μηδείς (talk) 17:31, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd checked both pt:Elevador de grãos and ca:Elevador de gra, but you never know; it's always possible that Spanish would use a different term. It's such a basic concept that I'm quite surprised that it has no es:wp article; my first assumption was that they likely had an article under a different title. Nyttend (talk) 21:11, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Copyrights of images violating ruels and regulation

Hello, I'm trying to get the understanding of the word copyright in images. Can I modify one image add/subtract a little in order to create a different/brand new one. I'll give you an example, , , say i change the background, change the colour of the sleeve, flip the image horizontally, will it work or will I be violating the copyright rules and regulations...? -- (SuperGirlsVibrator (talk) 21:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC))